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birdsafe
#1 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 5:48:45 PM(UTC)
birdsafe

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I had a customer who placed an order in January -- in late May I received a chargeback notice, saying he never received his order. He never contacted us to say that he didn't recieve it so I could file a claim with the Postal Service. I filled out the paperwork, showed Delivery Confirmation from USPS that it was delivered, explained our store policy about reporting lost packages within 30 days, and the credit card company ruled in our favor and gave us the money back ($47.18) -- now I get a notice that he has taken it to Visa -- Visa says they "require a signature proof of delivery on all shipments" -- how is that possible when the customer chooses Priority Mail, which by default does not require a signature? Visa says that if he deny his claim and take it to arbitration, if they find against us, it's a minimum of a $150 fine, up to or over $500.


So my question is: will Visa actually require to see some signature or rule against us? Will there really be such a fine? I certainly can't require all my customers to sign for every delivery -- most actually request there be NO signature. I can add a FedEx Ground/Delivery Signature required shipping option, which costs $3.00 extra -- I'm wondering if having that option would protect against such a ruling in the future.



Thoughts?



Thanks
Aaron
#2 Posted : Friday, June 26, 2009 10:17:05 PM(UTC)
Aaron

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I can't give you much help in this department, but I know that one of our clients had a lot of trouble with charge back fraud on USPS orders. They ultimately had to discontinue this shipping method in favor of UPS, however I don't know if they switched to requiring signatures on every package.
Aaron Sherrick
BV Commerce
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MitchA
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:45:09 AM(UTC)
MitchA

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Joe, this guy is gaming the system. His gambling you and the rest involved will not find it worth the effort to fight and eventually give in and let him have his lousy $50.00.

Don't sell to him again and move on. He's right, it's not worth your time.
Optimists invent airplanes,
Pessimists buy parachutes.
birdsafe
#4 Posted : Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:23:01 PM(UTC)
birdsafe

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Posts: 1,113

That's what I'm thinking -- though I just figured out that since the package was delivered to a PO box, a notice was left in his PO box, which was then "delivered" 2 days later, so I'm assuming he had to "accept" and/or perhaps sign for the package at the post office. So I'm going to see if there is a copy of that. If I can get that, I'll go forward -- the money isn't the issue, it's the scam I want to fight.
bobn@laurastamm.net
#5 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:25:45 PM(UTC)
bobn@laurastamm.net

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You might want to check with Visa to see if this guy has a history of excess charge backs from other merchants. If he does and he did receive the package, he may be committing fraud. The system is a 2 edged sword. It does cut both ways.

If not, it really could have been delivered to the wrong address or put in a dead letter location at the post office. They open those things when they get around to it.

Bob Noble
Marcus
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:08:36 PM(UTC)
Marcus

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Joe,

1) Go to Options->Orders->Force Users to Agree to Terms Before Checkout and turn this feature on.

2) Update your terms under the Content->Policies section to reflect your return and shipping policies explicitly. Mention that you do not ship with "signature required" and that an email receipt is confirmation of shipment.

3) For future orders you can fax Visa a picture of your checkout screen and a copy of your terms. I've won every chargeback that wasn't clear fraud after doing this. As long as you can prove that the customer agreed to your terms during checkout you should be okay.

I'd just give this guy his $50 bucks back and concentrate on how to prevent this in the future.
birdsafe
#7 Posted : Sunday, June 28, 2009 9:46:59 PM(UTC)
birdsafe

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Thanks for the feedback guys!
sternyy
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:00:27 AM(UTC)
sternyy

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Joe,

In addition to what Marcus said,

Even though BV allows you to force to agree to terms and conditions, those terms and conditions MUST BE DISPLAYED on the checkout page before receipt. They cannot be a popup box or on a seperate page as it is OOTB with BV. Failure to do so waives all your rights to chargebacks as an online retailer.

Also, We were told that all online retial deliveries must have a signature. Failure to do so also wiaves all your rights for chargebacks. We learned the hard way a while back. Whats even more difficult is taking online order's over the phone. Visa, mastercard, etc have tons of rules that you have to follow by, and yet they are hard to find. Call and get EXACT details on what you as a online retailer need to do.
birdsafe
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 2, 2009 9:04:46 PM(UTC)
birdsafe

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Thanks Bryan,

Yes, I'm aware of all that as well -- the problem is if you require "terms and conditions" -- it scares some customers off, and also 90 percent of customers do NOT want to have to sign for packages and they certainly don't want to have to pay extra for it. If I were to require a signature on every package, number one it would cost me about $2000 more a month in shipping fees on top of losing customers who don't want to have to sign for their package.
john.power
#10 Posted : Tuesday, July 7, 2009 10:41:40 PM(UTC)
john.power

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Bryan, can you point me to a link that specifies "...conditions MUST BE DISPLAYED on the checkout page before receipt. They cannot be a popup box or..."?

This thread made me look for examples from the main players such as Intuit, Amazon etc and I can't find one instance of this out there.

I did find this reference http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/visa_risk_management_guide_ecommerce.pdf which offered guidelines for online merchatnts and it seemed up to date.
sternyy
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 8, 2009 8:30:52 AM(UTC)
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there is no link to information. i called visa and mastercard and they verbally told me what changes to make.
sternyy
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:17:06 PM(UTC)
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I just wanted to bump this thread up for new ecommerce merchants. Most merchants rely heavily on their CVV and AVS codes to match. Although this lowers your fraud risk, it does not help you when cases against chargebacks.

To my best knowledge from this a few years ago, almost all credit card companies require your shipping address to match the billing address. For most B2C ecommerce stores, this doesnt present a problem as most customers would want their orders shipped to their homes (which is most likely their billing address.) However for most B2B ecommerce stores, some customers that do not have corporate credit cards or want to use their personal cards will most likely want their orders to ship to their business. If the billing address does not match the shipping address, you will lose most chargeback cases.

We've had a few fraud orders lately where everything matched, however the shipping and billing were not the same, therefor we were found to be held liable as it againast Visa's and MasterCard's terms for a non face-to-face point of sale.

Just a few thoughts to keep in mind when processing online orders!



Aaron
#13 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:42:53 PM(UTC)
Aaron

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Originally Posted by: sternyy Go to Quoted Post
To my best knowledge from this a few years ago, almost all credit card companies require your shipping address to match the billing address.
...
We've had a few fraud orders lately where everything matched, however the shipping and billing were not the same, therefor we were found to be held liable as it againast Visa's and MasterCard's terms for a non face-to-face point of sale.


Really? When I make an online purchase I always have the order shipped to my work address so it's not sitting unattended at my front door all day.
Aaron Sherrick
BV Commerce
Toll-free 888-665-8637 - Int'l +1 717-220-0012
sternyy
#14 Posted : Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:04:13 PM(UTC)
sternyy

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I called both Mastercard and Visa a few years back when we had some fraud. To my best recollection, they both stated that our best chances of winning against chargebacks from fraud would be to adhere to the following requirements:

1) Billing and Shipping must be the same as the credit card address
2) PCI Compliant
3) Must not charge the card before order ships (if order takes longer than 7 days you must clear the authorization and start a new authorization.)
4) All verification (CVV, AVS) must pass
5) Terms and conditions must be listed on site (not a popup window like BV currently)
6) Require a signature for delivery with all orders

I did a quick search and came across this from Visa: http://usa.visa.com/down...ment_guide_ecommerce.pdf

Check out pages 46, 49, 64 and 99. I didn't see where they state you will lose against all chargebacks if the above criteria isnt met like they told me on the phone, but I did gain that meeting the criteria lessens your chance of risk and helps you win your case.

It is especially hard with us being B2B. I’m pretty sure a doctor would not want a whole bunch of exam tables get delivered to his home. The above PDF has some good guidelines to follow when all the above criteria cannot be met, but doesn’t guarantee you will win against a chargeback.
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