Marcus, but the point is EVERY one of your competitors above $500 includes feeds. It's not included, not available in BV5. There's no date on when it may be available or even at what price, so making the price comparisons like you did are kind of unfair. At 599 that other package includes googlebase, shopzilla, shopper.com and even google checkout. No addons to buy. Same goes for all/most of the ones I saw here previously compared to in a discussion over the summer about licensing.

There are things that have been discussed here for two years that never materialized. When they come up we hear about developers coming out with them and it never happened. Now we're hearing that on BV5. Excel import/export (or at least some flat file import tool for bulk uploads), Froogle feeds, Google Checkout etc. Until the user base gets large enough putting it on the developers to come up with these things and at a price where they can make money on is tough.

I don't think any of us are asking for total integration. But a basic tool to export the file in a googlebase format doesn't exclude a vendor tool that does everything with one click.

I understand this software is superior in design etc. but in the end critical functionality with some understood flaws sells. Just take a look at the user base differential.

I understand that Froogle feeds can be very important for some merchants. We've had Froogle feeds available for BVC 2004. I think it's unreasonable to complain that we don't have one included for free in BV Commerce 5 when our add-on vendors have said they're working on it. Complain to the add-on vendors or politely make a feature request that we include one.

Didn't you just make my point Tim --->" I have 20 ideas for add-ons but not enough time in the day to get to them"
There aren't enough people using the software to make it worth your while to update and or create addons is essentially what we are both saying. SO the paying customers have to wait until their are enough customers to get this done or pay one of the few developers if they aren't too busy to take new clients? How many developers are actively working in 05 at this point, 3, 4? With the code changes that just came out I understand why the developers haven't gotten it done.

The feed input to googlebase is predefined. I realize there are multiple categories etc. What would be nice is simple export in the format required by Google. With a simle click and drag the end user could edit the proper category.

Everyone keeps talking about the developer community... how many plugins were produced for 2004 and how many are available for 5? I understand the concept of leaving it to the developers providing it actually gets done. Yeah, other packages may not include it, but it was available at the time of product release in almost all cases.

I also never said anything about it being free, I just can't believe approaching on 3 months it isn't available at all. We've recently discussed quickbooks on this site. Not all but some users use payroll. Each time a new package comes out you dont have to wait 3, 4, x months for someone to release a payroll plugin. It's included. Later you can buy more advanced versions that are highly customizable, but the standard feature is available. Intuit works with the developer community prior to release to insure products are pretty far along at release.

I understand what you are all saying, but I think you are all assuming there is this vast developer base out there for BVC customers to tap into. It isn't there yet and I think some waited to see the bugs worked out in BVC5. We're all willing to pay for these features but the problem is nobody is really willing to develop them as it's a loss leader in most cases == until the user base grows.


Use the googlebase example as a potential case study in how to build a module. It doesn't need to have all the complex features Al's does, a basic feed. If you document it well and use it as an example maybe other plugins will be soon to follow.

Tim I already offered 3 X the going rate for the previous addon on this very thread. IE it previously cost $99, I offered $300 and didn't care if it was resold.

Bryan I totally agree which is why it's ultimately the software developer that needs to produce this or at least get it started. This isn't the other packages (yet) where there is a customer base of 500 or 10000 eager customers waiting for addons. If I were a developer I probably wouldn't want to spend much time either until I see a higher adoption rate.

This is no knock on the software but I don't think there is a high enough adoption rate to have developers setting aside time today for these addons. I'd like to be one of the success stories with this software and with SP1 out hopefully that can begin, but there is some ableit minor but critical functionality I think most of us would use. There are ways/compromises that provide the base functionality without taking from the developers aka a googlebase export tool. Later for a fee a developer can release a totally automated version. It's a win win. BV can advertise the feature, developers can develop but more importantly the early adopters (us) aren't penalized either.

Back well within the 30 day review period it was suggested that this one would have it soon.

Tim, why is it none of you can take ANY criticism about this software? Do you really think I'm the only customer or potential customer that will turn away because these things aren't available? Is the software just so good that there should be no suggestions for improvement? Who is the target market, you the developer who turns around and makes money off it, or the end user? I think many of us mistakenly thought the end user was the primary concern.

Like I said, you made my point. You'd like to be able to develop addons but can't make money from it because people aren't willing to pay that much (note I never once contacted you, those were your words from apparently OTHER customer experiences) and don't have time. You ever consider there is a reason why the other packages include it? That the reason may be the same one I'm elaborating on here?


I didn't think this software would hit the market without those features. If I'm wrong develop a plugin for froogle, if I'm right it will be a long, long wait, and an expense that is equal to the software package itself for this one feature. Great for developers, not so great for the end user customer.

I happen to think that those involved with the software deal well with criticism and are more critical of themselves than we could ever be. I think the feeling you get that they are not taking criticism is the manner and subject matter in which you "criticize". You are suggesting that certain abilities should be in place and that other ecommerce packages offer these abilities. When you say this and how you say this it reads like you are suggesting that other ecommerce packages have these added abilities and are of equal quality and therefore better due to its added ability. If you are like all the other great people I have met and talked with in connection with the BV products, I think what you mean is that you chose BV because you know that the foundation is stronger than any other ecommerce ap and you know it would be just that much greater if only it had a few more features that would benefit the majority of online store operators. I agree that a froogle export tool would be beneficial but I stop short of expecting it to be included in the package. I stop short because of the up front cost of the package and becuase if it was available, it probably wouldn't work just like I wanted it to anyways. I am willing to pay for the modifications I want because they will then be exactly what I want.

In regards to having basic functionality to manually download a file in the froogle format to upload to froogle via BV, I have to believe anyone willing to do this would be willing to write a query and run a dtsx package on a schedule which would be much more simple than generating, downloading, uploading, etc. So the ability IS there, it's just not a button. Just my 2 cents.

Scottne, you never answered my question? You sound like you know software well enough to know that you never buy something and bet on what it might have tomorrow you buy it for what it offers today. With 1000's of feature requests, not everyones feature request will make it. I suspect you are not using the "other" packages because while they offer "feeds" they lack in many other SUBSTANTIAL areas. This is why my whole point about why you can NOT compare BV to other packages.

I'm not BV Commmerce and I didn't write BVC5 so make all the comments you want about it - doesnt' hurt my feelings. However, many of the developers (Myself, Matt, Cliff, Noah, etc.) who frequently contribute to these forums not only develop for the software but we also USE the software. We all have side projects, personal stores, etc. so you are mistaken when you suggest we just leach off the software to make money so therefore our opinions about what the software needs do not count. Even if we were "only" developers don't you think the clients tell us what they need and want in the package? I would argue that we actually have a much better idea of what is needed on mass scale because we are not just a single merchant whos focus is their store, we deal with several merchants and therefore we deal with many stores.

As far as people making money with BVC5 - Are you suggesting that only if it has feeds will people make money with the software? BVC2004 has been around for a very long time without feeds and merhcants are making a good living with the software. This will be the case with BVC5 too.

Last but not least - It is not that there is a lack of merchants or install base for BV Commerce it is that there is a lack of quality developers. Therefore developers like myself and others I've mentioned here are very busy taking care of clients who have sought us out because they know our reputation and want good work done. Therefore it's hard for us to find the free time to make add-ons, it's really as simple as that. There is also something called intellectual property, so if I make a feeds export for my client depending on how the contract is structured it does not give me the right to package and sell it to the masses for half the price they paid for it.

Anyway, this is just a bit silly at this point. Bottom line, you are way in the right to ask for feeds and I definately think they would be a nice feature but it's not you asking that I have a problem with it's how you ask for it. Can't you see the difference? If you must use the "comparison card" the at least do it honestly. Car A has way more horsepower than Car B but I forgot to mention that Car A only gets 2 miles to the gallon. Oh and there are only 3 tires. ;)

Matt nothing you said was heated, I totally understand where you are coming from. All I'm saying is the adoption rate either because of bugs or for other reasons is low.

Tim, so what exactly is your point? I made a suggestion that BVC should include feeds capability in the software. I made this suggestion after it is becoming clear there is no imminent release of feeds software in the works. I do not blame the developers. It's a financial decision for many of them. You've repeated this yourself. Soon we'll have google checkout INTEGRATED by the developer, but not google feeds? I brought the thread up because I believe it's in the best interest of MOST end user customers and BV itself to have these features integrated. It may not be in your best interest as a developer. The argument that is always made is that it should be up to the developers to develop these features but the truth and track record shows it doesn't often happen. This is nobody's fault. From a sales standpoint I can't understand why this is not something BVC would want. The largest name in the corporate world is Google being able to promote integration with both checkout and free googlebase is a no brainer.

Am I frustrated by the bugs so far in this release? Yes, mainly because I'm used to the previous two releases which had no major show stoppers. Are the core problems addressed that will allow us to go live in SP1? Yes. I just waited 70 days for these fixes, to sit here and be told wait again for developers to get around to making plugins?

If someone was already far along in the code process for this plugin why not buy it and integrate it so in the future it's released with the software, and is compatible with each release of the software in the future?

We work with a lot of merchants. Some making hundreds a day some hundreds of thousands. You never see or hear from the ladder here, they are to busy making money.

One thing I can say after seeing over 100 clients top the 10mil/yr point is every single one of them wouldn't have wasted the time it would take to read this thread before marching orders were given to solve the problem. None of them started out making millions they built it the old fashioned way.

These merchants don't stop for anything. If you think having a feed today is going to put you in their shoes tomorrow, well.....

BV could have waited an additional year on this release and had feeds for everything, tie ins to everything etc etc. It would not make the merchants doing hundreds in sales change what they do and it wouldn't have steered the way the clients making millions do what they do. Slowing up developement and improvements at the cost of a feed tool, now that would get their feathers ruffled.

There are already people making money with BV5 as well as feeding google, you just don't hear them in here asking about it, they just do it. We had a client that needed all their feeds updated for BVC5. We changed the master file format and made a lot of tweeks for the individual feeds and they were off and running. To this client it's worth thousands a day to have it and they do. They could have waited 2 more months for an official release that included a froogle feed, they could have waited another year. In their eyes waiting just costs them money and they are all about making money.

Obviously froogle is the biggie because they take the feeds for free and it will be nice if/when it's built in but it won't stop a single player from having one if they want it. Like any other customization/enhancement I look at it like a business 101 decision. If the client needs it and the cost is justified than you do it. Sure we could brow-beat BV to doing some of our work for us but that doesn't solve the problem today for the client. In the end it's their decision. Also keep in mind that half the feeds screamed for in BVC2004 are not even in business anymore.

There were a whole lot of "must have" requests we made over the last two years that made it into BVC5 and for that we and our merchants are very grateful. I haven't heard a single one yet wonder how they are going to make money with the product.